Ellie and Carrie discuss the darker side to matrilineal fame, including some of Mommy's cancellations. Also explored are Carrie's desire for fame in her own right versus Ellie's need for privacy, and how an extended period of isolation and an altercation with a neighbor in East Hampton prompted Carrie's quest for Internet celebrity. Other topics include wanting to "be good," building resiliency skills at the Child Mind Institute, mosaic wart clusters, and the fame revenge fantasy at the core of Taylor Swift’s 2010 hit “Mean.” Works cited are A. Giddens’ “Modernity and Self-Identity in the Late Modern Age," Christopher Lasch’s “culture of narcissism,” and Evelyn Brooks Higginbotham’s “metalanguage of race.”
Carrie: So, Ellie, as I was saying in the blooper, is in a bad mood because I wasn't clear about the timing for the recording. Having recorded one episode, we both have things to work on. Ellie is going to try to avoid using "you know" all the time. I'm going to try to speak more quickly because I sound like I've just woken up from, like, surgery or something in the previous one. So, yeah! Yeah, you know, let's get started. 3, 2, 1!
Carrie: In the last episode, Ellie and I had a deep and very long conversation about our lifelong proximity to our mom's fame, something that we were born, really thrust into. And we discussed both the good and bad parts of that.
Carrie: Many, many were good, exciting opportunities and experiences, access to other sparkly, famous people--
Ellie: Free stuff.
Carrie: Free stuff, experiences. We talked about the four privileges of celebrity, which are interactional, economic, normative, and legal.
Ellie: Well done.
Carrie: We are going to fast forward a little bit from our respective college experiences to how Mom's celebrity figured for both of us during the pandemic.
Carrie: So, during the pandemic or at least the start of it, I lived with Mom and our stepdad John, Mom's assistant Adriana, my stepbrother Henry, Henry's now ex-girlfriend--nothing but love--um, in Mom's house in East Hampton.
Carrie: It was an interesting, intense experience. But the way that Mom's fame or work or knownness, et cetera, figured into that was her, you know, constantly doing Instagram Lives with the ring light. And the ring light really became a seventh member of our quaran-team.
Carrie: But during that time in the spring of 2020, that was when you know, I had a job I really, really didn't enjoy. I was using Instagram a lot, I think, as we all were. Ellie, what kind of content were you engaging with during the first year of the pandemic?
Ellie: Well, I'm embarrassed to say that I got on TikTok and I was totally following the gals who could master the moves, the dances I was learning. I was trying to learn the, um, Megan Thee Stallion one--
Carrie: Savage?
Ellie: But I think we were all just looking for anything to look at and take our minds off of things.
Carrie: I think it's really interesting how, at least to watch how celebrities seemed to deal with the pandemic on social media, obviously the whole Ellen Degeneres thing didn't go over well, when she said it's like being in prison, and she was in her house in Malibu or whatever, um, and then--
Ellie: Montecito.
Carrie: Montecito, excuse me. Um, and also the "Imagine" video with all the celebrities. I mean, I don't think Mom is famous enough to have been asked to be in that, but we will say that she was asked to be in a different campaign during the summer, which was the "I am responsible." it's sort of like the white responsibility for Black pain and suffering. I think that the sentiment behind it is very real but--
Ellie: It just came across as super cringe.
Carrie: Mom declined to participate. Yes. For some reason. And she got Stanley Tucci to participate in that, which, um--
Ellie: She definitely apologized. She apologized to him afterwards because it didn't really go great.
Carrie: Yeah but one thing, I think, during the first year of the pandemic... because people were on the internet even more than usual and on their phones even more than usual was that people were getting canceled even more readily than they usually would. Obviously, we saw what happened with Alison Roman. I don't really think that that would have happened in a non pandemic scenario.
Ellie: Well, I also think that she became famous because of the pandemic. Everyone was talking about the pasta, the cookies, the stew, and I love Alison Roman. I'm a huge fan. And I really like the way her career's evolved since leaving the New York Times. But yeah, I would say, no, we wouldn't even know who she was were it not for the pandemic.
Carrie: Yeah, I myself got really into cooking and I made probably two thirds of the stuff I made in 2020 was, you know, hers.
Ellie: And you, you made amazing food and you also did an Instagram Live with her and Mom.
Carrie: Right. That was really interesting. That was right before she was canceled for the Marie Kondo/Chrissy Teigen thing. And that was fun.
Ellie: What did you guys make again, like a lemon pasta?
Carrie: Yeah. With, I think, pistachios and lemon zest and feta...
Ellie: But anyway, so I think that's a great example that everyone sort of had heightened sensitivities and just were, you know, were glued to their phones and wanted any sort of, you know, drama they could bring out of the pandemic. But I think people, you know, they weren't hanging out with their friends, there was no interpersonal drama, like we all have, and instead people were looking outwards to people on the internet for that.
Ellie: Uh, coming off what you were just talking about with Alison Roman, I think the same could be said about the Hilaria Baldwin/Hillary Thomas debacle that happened last Christmas when there was another surge in COVID cases and we were all locked down again and it was the holidays, so everyone had off. And how did that unfold, Carrie? I don't really remember exactly.
Carrie: It was that somebody on Twitter, not a known person or anything, tweeted, like, "Got to give credit to Hilaria Baldwin for her decade-long grift impersonating a Spanish person."
Ellie: So ostensibly, whoever posted that was also bored out of their minds, right? And posted that. And then, the flood gates opened.
Carrie: And then other people unearthed, you know, the Today Show segment, "How do you say cucumber?" And--
Ellie: When she was making gazpacho, right?
Carrie: And her talking about their engagement: "He wanted to take me east to be as close to my family--"
Ellie: Right, the eastern-most point of Long Island--,
Carrie: He took me to Montauk so I could be near Spain, et cetera.
Ellie: Right.
Carrie: "Married life is really nice." Okay, but I feel kind of bad for her, honestly, but I don't know. Maybe I don't.
Ellie: She seems super nice. I think, you know, Carrie, maybe I don't mean to speak for you, but I know you've been somewhat triggered by the fact that she has six children and is now pregnant with a seventh as the climate--
Carrie: Yeah. I am really upset by that.
Ellie: As a climate warrior.
Carrie: Well, I wouldn't, I mean, yes, it has to do with that. You know, I also obviously have problems with James VanDerBeek who just had his sixth child. I just think it goes back to the culture of narcissism, Christopher Lasch, 1979. I mean, am I right? So, spectacular--the culture of narcissism by Christopher Lasch. It's a really important work for understanding our era.
Ellie: We will have, we'll have a whole, uh, uh, footnote section and reference section for those who want further reading.
Carrie: Maybe, maybe. Um, you can just ask us. Um, anyways, in my newsletter, I wrote a whole diatribe against James Van der Beek and his wife Kimberly and their, you know, manifest destiny cosplay on their Texas, Texas compound. There are a lot of problems with it.
Ellie: Do you think any of that, of those feelings come from the fact that you just don't like Dawson as a character?
Carrie: Um, definitely. But I also think James VanDerBeek seems very similar to Dawson, you know?
Ellie: Right. It's like where--
Carrie: There's some cringe thing he tells Jen Lindley in the pilot, um... "I reject reality."
Ellie: He's so cringe.
Carrie: That's why he's so into Steven Spielberg. Well, he started the whole toxic nice guy trope that then gets picked up by Seth Cohen.
Ellie: Seth Cohen is so toxic.
Carrie: Yeah. Yeah. Actually, now that I rewatch the O.C., I used to always love Seth, but now I'm really into Ryan.
Ellie: I've always been a Ryan girl personally, even when he wore that leather bracelet.
Carrie: I mean, he always is wearing the leather bracelet. It's kind of hot. It reminds me of my old dance teacher, Mr. McGowan.
Ellie: Mr. McGowan. Um, Dane Cook does that, and it is not cute. But it's hot on Ryan. It works on him.
Carrie: But back to James van der Beek. Yeah, I mean, I have a lot of issues with it. I guess now is a time where I could bring in a little bit of theory.
Ellie: Hit us.
Carrie: In 1991, Giddens wrote about how in late modernity, the collapse of tradition led to this kind of crisis of ontological insecurity and that kind of led individuals to become obsessed with projects of the self. And we can talk a lot about self-branding and all of that, but--
Ellie: Preach.
Carrie: I do. Okay. I do feel like with James Van der Beek and with, and with Hilaria Baldwin, the children, the gestations, it's just part of a brand. It's, it's creating, you know, their promotionally oriented self that is built to serve neoliberal doctrines and its purpose is to attract attention and capital. Anyways.
Ellie: Do you think that they would have as many children if they weren't on Instagram? Take Instagram out of the equation. How many children?
Carrie: No, I don't. I don't think that they--I think they would maybe have two children.
Ellie: There you go. Interesting.
Carrie: You know? I really do. I really, really do.
Ellie: I mean, connecting the dots, coming full circle here. I think there's a correlation between the rise of Instagram and then maybe people feeling like they need to have babies. It's another, it's a major social pressure. At least, you know, my friends are getting married. They're not all at the age of having babies, but I can imagine seeing all that all the time. I mean, that must have some effect on you.
Carrie: Yeah. I feel like also with engagements that happens, right? I feel like--
Ellie: Totally.
Carrie: I mean, you can't really talk about it because you've had a partner for like 11 years and you're married. But for me, someone who's single, um, has no dating prospects, has not had sex in over seven months.
Ellie: Oh my gosh.
Carrie: Um, when I see these really cheugy engagement photo shoots--your, yours was normal. Like you didn't have a photographer hidden somewhere. You didn't get your manicure.
Ellie: I did get a manicure.
Carrie: You got a manicure? Okay. Whatever. But you know, they all get like ballet slipper or Fiji painted. Yeah, it's just come on.
Ellie: I know.
Carrie: It's so embarrassing and I hate it. And I, I, when I, when I see these kinds of pictures, unless it's somebody that I really love and care about--
Ellie: it makes you feel less than.
Carrie: I think probably for me to quote that Atlantic article, friendship will most likely be the center of my life, and I'm okay with that.
Ellie: Love it.
Carrie: And, uh, I really, I, you know, I am speaking about my friendship with you in that, too.
Ellie: Sorry. I just veered us a little off topic. What, what did you want to talk about? Bring us back.
Carrie: I wanted to talk about Mom getting canceled. I think this would have been either May or June of 2020, the whole Denzel Washington thing, which, um, a lot of people are still angry about, I think. So, maybe us bringing it up isn't great.
Carrie: But I do want to talk about how things like that affect us.
Ellie: Absolutely.
Carrie: And honestly, cause this kind of panic. So, I think also in the way that people like Alison Roman became famous with the help of people being on their phones and cooking and being home more, a lot of celebrities because they weren't working on projects or because they had time, were doing interviews that they wouldn't normally do.
Carrie: So, in the case of Mom, what happened?
Ellie: I mean, it was on a podcast, right?
Carrie: Danny Pellegrino.
Ellie: But I don't, I don't know who that is.
Carrie: Danny Pellegrino is, I guess, an Instagram personality. Mom did an interview, sort of pop cultural, fun podcast, um, in which she was asked by Danny Pellegrino, what is the most awkward interview you've ever done?
Ellie: And she said that Denzel Washington was among one of the more awkward ones. She was interviewing him for the Manchurian Candidate, which gosh, I guess, was in the early aughts. And she said something to the effect of, you know, he, he, he and I weren't jiving, and, um, he wasn't giving me a lot to work with. I mean, this is at least how I remember it.
Ellie: I did not listen to it, the podcast in question, I just, I was brought up to speed by, by you Carrie and by Mom and stuff and saw some stuff online, obviously. But basically Mom said something to the effect of, you know, she asked a certain question that he didn't like, and he got very reactive and, you know, quote unquote "jumped all over her" and that she was freaked out by it.
Carrie: And I think we have to remember, like when Mom was recording this podcast, I guess she was doing it over the phone. Obviously, I don't think that she was paying that much attention. I'm pretty sure she was doing organizing in the basement for her book and looking through old photos and taking it pretty casually.
Carrie: And the, by the way, the question she had asked, had to do with actors or people in Hollywood and political activism. Because I think, very different from today, 20 years ago, that was so much less common. And he didn't like that question or the way that she phrased it.
Carrie: I think what happened was people understood the way that she phrased it as I guess, playing into a historical narrative about white female victimhood, and I guess almost kind of the language of a lynching narrative of some kind. And I want to give a shout out to Evelyn Brooks Higginbotham and her work on racial metalanguage. I think had my mom read that, maybe this wouldn't have happened. I don't know.
Carrie: But I think Ellie, when that happened, I think you--Mom told me not to tell you about it, right?
Ellie: Yeah. I've, I have a history of getting very, very triggered and upset whenever these things happen. And I have sort of learned that ignorance is bliss, and I should just ignore it. But you know, the downside of it is that Mom doesn't feel like she can confide in me or tell me when things are going on, which isn't the best. So, we're figuring out, you know, a happy, a happy medium.
Carrie: But I just want to say that it reminds me of what happened in a couple of years ago with Mom's gun documentary Under the Gun, and the whole issue with the alleged deceptive editing with the Virginia gun owners. You can Google it.
Ellie: Or don't.
Carrie: Ellie was really, really affected by that. Ellie was really, really upset by that. This must've been like 2015. I didn't--
Ellie: 2016.
Carrie: Okay. I didn't pay any attention to it at the time. And now the roles are kind of reversed in that I am so hyper online. I'm just such an online person because maybe because I don't really have a life. But Ellie used to be the one to find things like this, or to be the first one aware of some bad press about our mom.
Ellie: Yeah. I would say that ever since 2016, there have been these moments where there's been a gaffe or an error or something said the wrong way or taken the wrong way. And it's a lot to deal with. And, you know, these are, are moments where, you know, a cloud is over our head for, you know, weeks, I would say, sometimes months.
Ellie: It does always pass. But when we're in it, Carrie, I mean, it's just all consuming. And I would say that that was the gun documentary stuff. The Denzel Washington thing.
Carrie: Didn't something happen with Pyongyang, too? After the gun stuff? When Mom, like, guest hosted the Olympics?
Ellie: Well, her one of her co-hosts said something offensive to the Korean people who, as I'm learning through Pachinko, the book and amazing TV show, um, you know, the Japanese had persecuted the Koreans, they occupied Korea. So there's a lot of bad blood between the two countries, you know, historically there was. And I think a co-host misspoke about something related to Koreans being influenced by Japanese culture, and didn't really get it right. So, that wasn't her.
Ellie: She did get blowback for saying that in Amsterdam, uh, people iceskate on the canals. Um, you know, she's reading a script. I mean, you know, people got upset about that, but you know, there's always things here and there. But I would say the biggest things were the gun documentary, to a lesser extent, for me at least, the Denzel Washington thing. Um, and then I would say also the release of her memoir, the most recent thing, that was very intense for Carrie and me to go through.
Carrie: But before that, something else happened in early 2021, that was anger from the opposite end of the spectrum. So the Denzel Washington stuff was coming from the left. And then when Mom was getting ready to host Jeopardy, she went on Bill Maher and she said something about, um, how she felt, you know--
Ellie: Trump supporters need to be deprogrammed--
Carrie: This was at the height of--.
Carrie: This was something--
Carrie: This was something at the height of the big lie. This was, I guess right after... Was this right after--
Ellie: Right after January 6.
Carrie: Right, where she said that Trump's supporters needed to be deprogrammed. And obviously, she didn't mean that they needed to be in re-education camps. Like, oh my God, do you have to be that daft to actually think that? And yes, they do need to be reprogrammed! I mean, there's no more consensus of what is true. It's like these people are living, you know, on a different plane of reality.
Carrie: Anyway, people were very angry that she had said this. And this was also when she'd gone to LA to guest host Jeopardy.
Ellie: And I would say that, you know, I guess a lot of CBS, Jeopardy viewers are right leaning, probably unsurprisingly.
Carrie: Or old. Older.
Ellie: Yes. And so--
Carrie: I actually did find that kind of surprising, though. Yeah. I guess, cause that show's so apolitical, but go ahead.
Ellie: Yeah. I mean, I would've thought it could go both ways.
Carrie: Especially 'cause it's about facts, like, you know?
Ellie: Right, right, exactly. Um, yeah. But yeah, I would say, you know, so in March of 2021 on International Women's Day, Jeopardy announced that mom was going to be a guest host for two weeks. Uh, this is so painful to relive. So anyway, so they announced it on International Women's Day on the Jeopardy Instagram, Katie Couric will be guest hosting for Jeopardy. This is right after Alex Trebek died. And there was an uproar on the Jeopardy Facebook, Instagram page and on CBS and anywhere that posted it, you know, like entertainment websites and stuff like that, and like Variety, Hollywood Reporter.
Ellie: And, you know, once you leave Mom's page and, it's kind of scary because people will just write whatever they want. And they, they were so mean to her and also on her own page, they were mean to her. Wouldn't you say?
Carrie: Yeah. I mean, it was really Trumpers getting mad. "Oh, you need us to be deprogrammed? Deprogram my ass!" Uh, like, okay. Good one. And anyways, Ellie and I became incensed.
Ellie: We got sucked in.
Carrie: And we also felt like this was something that was so ridiculous. And we felt fine clapping back, if you will, at Trump supporters. And so, we really went off on these people and there was that one woman, we were really trolling and we kept saying, "God bless you. I hope you find peace."
Ellie: Yeah. We kept saying like weird Christian stuff.
Carrie: "May, may the good Lord bless and keep you." yeah.
Ellie: And then she finally just blocked us.
Carrie: Did she? And I said something like, "God, God is a woman." And you know...
Ellie: But then she figured out who we were and she was like, "I know you want to defend your mom, but what happened? She used to be America's sweetheart. And now she's a monster" or something. Anyway.
Ellie: And it's just so easy to feed, to feed that monster inside of you that wants, you know, I mean it's like a drug. You go down the rabbit hole, you get deeper and deeper, like you clap back--
Carrie: You get an adrenaline rush.
Ellie: Totally. And major endorphins. Uh, you clap back then you want to see what the person wrote back. So then you can clap back again and then see who else has been tagged in it.
Carrie: And you're refreshing, refreshing.
Ellie: Yeah. It's like, it's gross. I, I really, I remember feeling disgusting that night and just feeling like worse than I started.
Carrie: Yeah. It's never satisfying because you think, "I'm going to comment something really good that is just going to make them realize that they're wrong." But that's never really gonna happen.
Ellie: No.
Carrie: When we live in a different reality than these people.
Ellie: And I think all they want is to, is to provoke a reaction and to engage, right?
Carrie: And we also need to realize it's actually not our job to educate these people.
Ellie: But I just want to say, back to the Denzel Washington thing, um, you know, in my mind it was a poor choice of words, but I don't think she meant anything by it. You know, it all, it was a poor choice of words, I guess. That's all you can really say.
Carrie: Yeah. You also never know what kind of day somebody is having or what they're dealing with. And that's also such a beloved person and actor.
Ellie: I also hope that she mentioned, because she always mentions this, that afterwards, after the interview didn't really go so well, he sent a big check to the Jay Monahan Center, which is the cancer center our mom founded in our, in our dad's memory at New York Hospital. It's, it's a cancer center and she didn't solicit or anything. He did it because he's a nice guy. It was a bad interview, but you know, it's all good. And he did this really nice thing.
Ellie: I think we can just say there've been moments where it's really intense and we feel like everybody's out to get us, you know? And that we're, we're a major target even in, way more in our heads than I think is the reality.
Ellie: Tell the story, sis.
Carrie: Sure. I guess I want to talk a little bit about my own journey to wanting fame for myself. I think Ellie and I growing up were different. I was always kind of more performative, I think.
Ellie: Extroverted.
Carrie: I don't know. Okay.
Ellie: Actually, I'm wrong about that. Anyway. Interesting. But yes, definitely more performative.
Carrie: More performative. I always liked to be a ham, you know. I liked to do things like pull down my pants and fart and--remember when I did that? I did that in front of Mom's boyfriend. I would just do stuff like that.
Ellie: It was in front of Mom's boyfriend's daughter and her friend.
Carrie: Yeah.
Ellie: They always got to bring a friend on the vacation.
Carrie: Yeah. But we didn't like we didn't.
Ellie: We didn't. We had to be each other's friends.
Carrie: But the thing is with that, I loved that because it was like this teenage girl, and, you know, when someone's older than you, a teenager, you think they're cool, even though they're really not cool.
Ellie: They were women.
Carrie: I guess. And they wore like--
Ellie: In my mind they were.
Carrie: Like, they always, they always were Hard Tails, those pants Hard Tails.
Ellie: They did. And she, I have to give this girl credit. Wish her well, I heard she's got children of her own now. Crazy how time flies. But I have to give her props. She was on the Chrome Hearts thing very, very young.
Carrie: Yeah. Oh my God. We went to Chrome Hearts. We went to Chrome hearts with her. I was like 8.
Ellie: And Mom was like, "I don't understand what, why is this motorcycle store?"
Carrie: Yeah, Chrome Hearts.
Carrie: But I liked her, too. Because I liked to sit on her lap. And that was another thing. I loved to be the cute little girl. I loved to play into that part. But I was also cheeky and irreverent. And I think I kind of still embody that as, as an adult, because I look really young.
Ellie: Lucky.
Carrie: Yeah. I look really young right now. Do you like my hair with the headphones? Why does it look like that?
Carrie: But back to the whole performance thing and us being different. I think I was always a little bit more interested in, like, trying to get on the Today Show when we were kids. I was in the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade three times, three times. Yeah. Uh, Hilary Duff, Raven Symone, and Carrie Underwood.
Ellie: Which was your favorite?
Carrie: Obviously, Hilary Duff. By the way, none of them sing. They all lip sync.
Ellie: Well, yes, that's probably true.
Carrie: In the parade, in the parade. No, you know what? I think Carrie Underwood really sang. I think she did. This was after she won American Idol, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, during the parade, I was really on screen more than the singer whose float I was on, because the camera man knew Mom, and then I think got a kick out of it.
Carrie: You can look up on YouTube, "Hilary Duff, 2003 Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade," and you'll see me. It's mostly me, actually.
Ellie: Well, there was one segment at the Today Show that I was on, and I was terrible at it and froze up.
Carrie: What was it?
Ellie: It was like a pre-teen fitness program or something. I don't know. And they needed, they needed a bunch of middle school kids or, you know, a variety of ages to run around on the plaza and do relay races or something like that. And I remember I brought, like, Isabel and a few other girls from my school and I froze up and was so--I felt so awkward. And I'm sure it came across as just, like, me being a bitchy teen. And I'll never forget. Mom was, like, on her microphone saying something. And then she gets really close to me and she whispers in my ear, she's like, "Start moving." And, like, with a fire in her eyes I had not seen before. We were on live TV. And so I hopped right to.
Ellie: But after that, I was like, "I'm not doing this ever again."
Carrie: I think I was probably more natural than you because, you know, I did a lot of things on the Today Show. I did an infomercial for the Egg Wave, which is this tool that cooks eggs in minutes in the microwave, and it's fast and easy. And then I was obsessed. I only ate eggs out of the Egg Wave after that. I one time--
Ellie: You were a real spokeswoman!
Carrie: I one time tried, uh, like these maple glazed barbecue ribs, and, you know, I loved--I had the barbecue sauce all over my face and I was like, "So good." You know, probably at like 10:00 AM and, like, eating ribs.
Carrie: And then I, with my soccer team, we played soccer on the plaza with Brandi Chastain.
Ellie: That's really cool.
Carrie: Which was really cool. But I felt, when I saw the segment afterwards, so bad because I had worn a sweatshirt under my jersey and it really, you know, the camera really does add 10 to 20 pounds. And, you know, even though I was 8 at the time, and this speaks to so many societal problems, instead of thinking, "Wow, so cool! I got to play soccer with Brandi Chastain!" It was like, "Oh wow. I look like a Michelin man."
Ellie: You know what, though? That's just, like, that's just human nature to nitpick yourself.
Carrie: Yeah, I guess so, but it also has to do with, like, images and dissociation and stuff. But anyways.
Ellie: Anyway, we'll save that for another episode.
Carrie: Yeah. I want to though say when all this was happening, the Bill Maher stuff, the, you know, reprogramming, the Jeopardy... Mom had gone to LA to stay there for a couple months, and I was all alone. I didn't want to go back to New York City, so I stayed at Mom's house out in East Hampton.
Carrie: And I was living there really alone. Well, with two cats, Mabel and Walter, my cats, and then two foster puppies that ended up staying with me for longer than I had originally anticipated. So, I was living with four animals in the house in really the, a bleak time to be out east because the sun sun sets--
Ellie: January, February, March. It's so cold.
Carrie: Yeah. The sun sets at like 4:00 PM.
Ellie: There's nothing to do.
Carrie: There's like no sunlight. And I had a job that I really wasn't enjoying, and I was spending even more time than during the rest of the pandemic looking at screens because I was all alone. You know, when I would eat dinner--I lost interest in cooking because it's hard to cook for just yourself--I was eating a lot of like weird frozen--
Ellie: Vegan stuff.
Carrie: You know, imitation meat and things like that. And, you know, I would eat alone watching Trisha Paytas eat. I would eat with Trisha, or I would watch, I would watch mukbangs and I would eat with them. And then even when I would exercise, I'm not exercising outside. I'm, you know, watching Tracy Anderson on a screen or Peloton in the basement among, you know, our late father's Civil War paraphernalia, which is a weird experience. That's really how I got into Tracy Anderson, is doing that there.
Ellie: And also you would, you would blast the heat.
Carrie: Yeah. Blast the heat to like 85 degrees. I would've done it hotter, but I didn't want to damage the antiques with the temperature. And then I would, you know, I would eat, and then I would do Tracy Anderson and then I'd go back up and then I'd watch like Real Housewives in Mom's bathtub. Then I would get like really, really high. And then I would get into Mom's bed and I would watch YouTube videos.
Carrie: And Ellie and I watch this, you know, have the same kind of taste in YouTube content, you know. We're watching very specific, you know, pimple popping videos. Never Dr. Pimple Popper anymore, because it's way too surgical. But you know, we're watching this esthetician in Ho Chi Minh City--
Ellie: From Sac Dep Spa. Shout out!
Carrie: Yeah. Sac Dep Spa, you know, use a nine-gauge needle to excavate out of people's faces things--
Ellie: Crazy stuff.
Carrie: I mean, it's, it's, it's amazing though, watching that, and it's such a subculture.
Ellie: Do you ever look at the comments? And you're like--
Carrie: Oh, oh, always like,, you know, I also loved, I love watching chiropractic videos. I watched this woman Dr. Mondragon, I think she's in Orlando. Amazing. And then, though, I would be online for so long that I'd start watching animal versions of these videos.
Ellie: Oh, yeah. I can't do that you sent me those.
Carrie: I'm watching golden retrievers get like blackheads taken out of her elbows. Or I'm watching, you know, people, they're really helping the turtles because barnacles are parasitic, people removing barnacles from sea turtle shells. I really recommend that. It's awesome.
Ellie: Well, I just want to say, I love the pimple popping community and we can totally save this for another day, but I really love looking at the comments. I really appreciate when people do timestamps to the best moments and then you get to--
Carrie: Oh, yeah. People do that on the chiropractic ones too, like--
Ellie: At 1:01, that's the best crack.
Carrie: Yeah. Or they're, they're like, yeah, 4:33 cervical spine or whatever.
Ellie: We need hobbies, but it's just relaxing. And I also love the community because if there's ever a part two, they'll link it, like, help you out. Because the worst thing is when you see when she hasn't finished yet, and then the video ends. You're so lucky if there's a part two, and your fellow community members help you find it.
Carrie: Sometimes, you know, they, they really want to, they really want to support the creators, right? Like, people who are loyal to Sac Dep Spa are really loyal, and you'll find somebody who, who stole it or who literally stole the video and maybe, um, like flipped the image or something. That's why Sac Dep Spa wears on her glove, like Sac Dep Spa or whatever.
Ellie: It acts as like a water mark.
Carrie: But people will be in the comments like, "You stole this from Sac Dep Spa!" Like "Cease and desist!"
Ellie: They're very loyal and defensive.
Carrie: Yeah. It's like, meanwhile, it's Ellie writing all those comments.
Carrie: But I basically wanted to give context to, you know, when I'm spending all this time alone, I'm not doing things to really better myself as a person. I am not learning a new language like we all thought or learning how to play the guitar like we thought we would at the start of the pandemic.
Ellie: You're doing that now.
Carrie: I know, but I'm just saying, this is what I'm spending time doing, right?
Ellie: Also you got really into cooking, but I know. Okay. Yes, you were making a point.
Carrie: But I'm talking about this specific point kind of second surge.
Carrie: And I'm also going through a hard time because I'm feeling really bad about myself because I found out at that time, my ex-boyfriend who I had been dating during the first few months of the pandemic and who, you know, we'd broken up because he was emotionally unavailable or whatever. And I find out that he's dating somebody I know and that's always hard. And you know, for me, it became, "Wow. I feel so bad about myself. I'm so disgusting and weird and unlovable." Right? So when, you know, that wasn't really the issue. But I just want to say that this is the context for me being alone at Mom's house.
Carrie: Then, so I mentioned the foster dogs, right? I had this moment during this time of isolation where literally, I mean, I was seeing our family, friends, Charlie and Ralph sometimes. But, and then I would also see my neighbor Betty, who's since passed away. Really lovely person. But I was really alone. And I'm taking care of all of these animals.
Carrie: And one morning, I'm making coffee. It's, it's the weekend, which, you know, all the days are the same to me. But, um, the dogs, I had let them outside to go to the bathroom and then they snuck under the fence and they, like, burrowed themselves under, and they got out. And I didn't realize this. I'm in inside making some coffee while the dogs, I thought, are just running around in the backyard.
Carrie: And I hear the gate phone ring. And I'm like, "Oh shoot." I think I had a feeling that that had happened because to be honest, it had happened once before.
Ellie: I remember.
Carrie: And yeah, it was so stressful. But I come out, I'm still wearing my bathrobe, right? It's all snowy and icy. And I'm, like, hobbling out. I look so bad. I don't have my mask on. And there are these two people standing there. And there's this woman with this face, she's like boring her eyes into my skull. She has like these scary green eyes. She looked like a witch. And she's wearing like this shiny Moncler and little mini Uggs.
Carrie: And she's like, you know, she's so mad and she, she's with, I guess, presumably her husband and, you know, he's such a coward, standing behind her. And they have the dogs and I run out and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. Thank you." And she loses it. She starts screaming at me that I'm irresponsible. And yes, you know, this was a mistake and this shouldn't have happened. We also live on a street that is quiet, but, you know, that they could have gotten hurt and this, and if you're not responsible enough, you shouldn't take care of dogs. And that, you know, and she said that I was so rude and that I was this, and I'm just like, "Whoa."
Ellie: She just launched "rude" right away?
Carrie: Well, that was because--
Ellie: Oh, had she seen them--had she seen them out before?
Carrie: The previous time, it was also her.
Ellie: Oh, okay. Okay. Well, yes. Still unwarranted, but I understand a little bit more.
Carrie: Yeah. She said that i, I didn't say thank you when this happened and that--
Ellie: So, she basically, it was a full-on character assassination.
Carrie: It was a character assassination. Also, I'm someone who is so deferential to adults and strangers I'm so--
Ellie: So well-mannered.
Carrie: Yeah. I mean, maybe not to people that I actually know, but to strangers, I am an angel. I mean, I'm so scared of getting in trouble. I think it really stems from this incident at Dylan's Candy Bar when I was a kid, honestly. But for her to say that I was rude or ungrateful, and then she's saying I have to get them different collars, or like, she's really going off at me. I also can't tell if she thinks I'm like 16. I mean, I think that was really likely.
Carrie: Her husband, meanwhile, is like halfway down the road, like a fucking coward and he's long gone, you know, while she's still unleashing on me. And then she, like, stomps down the street and in her little, I think she was wearing those mini Uggs.
Ellie: I mean, I could go for a pair of those, but I know they're not vegan.
Carrie: I start--I'm so upset and I feel so there's so much injustice has been done to me. I start wailing, like, it was a little--
Ellie: You and I feel injustice very acutely.
Carrie: And it was a little bit performative. It was a little bit performative.
Ellie: I think also you wanted something to do.
Carrie: Well,, no, I wanted her to feel really bad because she had just done, she just acted in a way that was so horrible.
Carrie: Oh, I forgot to say she said that last time, the reason she said I was rude was because I wouldn't go near her or something. And I'm like, "Girl, we're in a pandemic, and we weren't wearing masks. What do you expect me to come up to you? And like kiss you and stuff?"
Carrie: She said, and then she said--this was the real kicker--she said, "I'm not some dirty person. You know, I live down the street."
Carrie: That meant she's white and rich, so she's not going to have COVID. And maybe, maybe structurally that's, like, more likely because she's not in a situation where she has to go to work. But I mean, I bet she's, like, seeing her little friends. They probably all have the same Monclers and whatever.
Ellie: Yeah. They're probably still going to Soul Cycle.
Carrie: I just thought that that was so--well, no. It wouldn't have been open. But it was just, I start wailing. I have, you know, a dog in each arm. This story has become way too long.
Ellie: Listen, you're all, you're emotionally fragile. You're alone. Um, it's cold. It's the weekend. And someone just really yelled at you and you were not expecting that.
Carrie: Yeah, it was, it, it was like, I also, hadn't seen another person in a really long time and that was, who I see?
Ellie: Yeah, and for that to be--that's your re-entry into socializing with the outside world.
Carrie: Like, she ultimately wrote a thank you note and put it in the mailbox and put her email.
Ellie: So why do you think she did that?
Carrie: Sorry, not thank you note. An apology note. Because, um, the amount that I cried.
Ellie: You think she heard you when she was walking down the street?
Carrie: Yeah. Or maybe her husband wasn't a coward after all and he said "You were, you were, that was way harsh, Tai." But I don't know. She wrote an apology note. She also wrote in the note that she could have her contractor fix the fence and she gave me her email. I sent her a really long, obsequious, uh, but also like completely self-pitying email.
Carrie: So, yeah. It was nice that you offered to do that, Laura G., but you're still really awful in my book. So, if I ever see you, I will start hissing like, like they do when they see what's her name in The Sound of Music.
Ellie: Uh, Fraulein Maria?
Carrie: No the girlfriend. No, the girlfriend.
Ellie: Liesl.
Carrie: No, the captain's girlfriend.
Ellie: Oh, got it. Got it. Got it. Maria's competition.
Carrie: Yeah. Do you remember when we went to that thing?
Ellie: The sing-along?
Carrie: Hissing when she came on the screen? I would do that at you.
Ellie: I just want to say that you're, how amazing this story is. I just want to say how lucky you are that someone wronged you, you were really upset by it, and then somehow put it out into the universe that you were so upset about it that you've actually got some sort of acknowledgement of wrongdoing all within the same day.
Carrie: By crying really loud.
Ellie: Was it the same day?
Carrie: I like, I think she must've heard me crying through the hedges while I was--it was only like an hour later. Anyways, but--
Ellie: It's just amazing! An hour later!
Carrie: So yeah, maybe she's one of those, like, "say it and then immediately regret it" people like Lisa Rinna. But this was really the context.
Carrie: I think it was that day, you know, what am I going to do the rest of the day? I'm going to go inside and I'm gonna go on YouTube. I'm going to look up karaoke, uh, "Still Hurting" from The Last Five Years, and I'm going to AirPlay onto the living room TV, and I'm going to sing it, and I'm going to record myself singing it. And that's what I'm going to do for, I'm going to really do that for the next, like two or three hours.
Carrie: By this point, you know, the sun is already setting because it's like what, like 3:45. And yeah. So it's that, it's the breakup.
Carrie: I was really fine after the breakup, it was more--
Ellie: Laura G. was worse.
Carrie: No, it was... but it was finding out that this person was with somebody else and it was somebody else that I knew, and that was like, just total spiraling.
Carrie: So anyways, I had this fantasy, though, when I was singing The Last Five Years because I am a good singer. And I was like, "Wow, why, what am I doing with my life? Why did I go to journalism school to have this stupid job that I hate? Why didn't I try to become a singer, an actor, a star? I mean, I really felt like that. And sometimes I do still feel like that. I mean, I need to really do some, some tuning of my skills and I actually, at the end of the day, don't think I'd be a good actor. I mean, I'd definitely be a good reality TV person because the person that I'm performing, right, is myself. So yeah, performing personhood, spectacular selfhood.
Carrie: We can get into that, but I had this fantasy, and I know I'm talking more than Ellie, but it's fine.
Ellie: No, it's fine.
Carrie: No, but I had this fantasy after the Laura G thing happened. I really was thinking, "Wow. I wonder 1) if she knows who Mom is. That was my first thought.
Ellie: Do you think that's what motivated the note?
Carrie: No, I, I don't think I still don't think that she knows. They were like kind of random and then I Googled her and they, like, mostly live in London. So, I don't know. So, so that was my first thought. Does she know who Mom is?
Carrie: 2) Would she care? I think also the immediate, like, jumping to Mom is something we talked about in the last episode where knowing that people know, it can bring both comfort because it affords you kind of this protection at the same time or,
Ellie: And protection in the form of, of like a familiarity that--
Carrie: A familiarity, or really a deference. To me, a kind of deferential sensibility. So, I think that honestly, to bring back the Dylan's Candy Bar incident, that was one of the earliest moments I felt that way because I felt I had been wronged by this woman. You know, I was giving myself some of that, you know, Dylan's Candy bar, you get a bag and you put all this stuff in, whatever. And then you weigh it at the end. I was there with my camp friends and I was getting the sour rope, you know, so delicious.
Ellie: So good.
Carrie: My mouth is literally watering and thinking about it. But I guess that I used my fingers because--
Ellie: And not the tongs?
Carrie: And not the tongs, which is a no-no. But this woman totally--What's the word?--excoriated me. There are tongs for a reason, little girl! I just kidding. She didn't do the whole Mary M. Cosby thing. "Little girl!"
Carrie: But, but, um, anyways, and then Mom... and then I went and cried to Mom and was like, "That lady was mean!" And this was right when Mom was, like, really famous. I don't think this would work now also because, like, I am not a little kid, but maybe it would work. I don't know.
Ellie: What did Mom do?
Carrie: Mom was like, "That is so rude." Not to her, but, you know, so purposely she would hear, and comforting me like, "Waaah!" The woman is, like, all embarrassed.
Carrie: So anyways, that's what I was thinking with Laura G could, could that happen?
Ellie: Well, totally. You know, you know what, you know why? It triggers you on such a deep level because it's not just the Dylan's Candy Bar story. Literally, being a kid and being wanting to be good and being good and behaving associated with being loved and feeling safe.
Ellie: So I, I don't know. I think, you know, obviously kids misbehave a lot, and I don't know enough about parenting at my age, but I do think there's this overemphasis on being good that fucks people, especially women, up for life. If you step outside the line for, you know, uh, for a second, it's just, it's scary, because it's just not what we were raised to be. Anyway.
Carrie: I guess so. I think that's how you would feel in that situation.
Ellie: Well, I, I just think that what you're talking about is that you hate breaking the rules. You hate getting in trouble. There's something inherently shameful in a simple mistake of not using tongs. I'm just saying, I think there's a correlation between literally being a preschooler and being, you know, and feeling like the world was ending if you did something wrong.
Carrie: Yeah. I still feel like the world is ending when I do something wrong. Yeah, like when I mess up something at work. But my doctor, I still go to the Child Mind Institute, by the way. They, they take adults. I mean, I've been going there for a long time. I'm not going to switch anytime soon. Yeah. But it is always weird. Like, thank God I don't go in person anymore because waiting in the waiting room and there are all, like, kids with behavioral problems playing with toys and stuff, and I'm like--
Ellie: Kids with Play-Doh?
Carrie: No, it's not like that. It's like, it's definitely more serious than that. It definitely more serious than that. But yeah, it was a, it was kind of weird for me to be like 24 years old at the Child Mind Institute waiting room with like this giant stuff, stuffed bear. So they, you know, they're really cutting edge.
Carrie: Okay. But anyways, yeah, yeah. But the whole wanting to be good, not wanting to mess up also has to do with being, like, a high achieving person and being a perfectionist, obviously. But just being a type A person who always did everything right. When you're that kind of person and the kind of person who doesn't fail, that's also a thing, you have no, like, resiliency skills.
Carrie: So, it's really important to build resilience.
Ellie: No, it is. I mean, I could talk about this for a long time. But I'll never forget, I was a sophomore at Yale, and I was taking this really hard seminar about trials throughout literature. And I wrote this piece about The Stranger, and I worked so hard on it and I got a B minus on this paper, and I actually felt somewhat okay with it. You know, I think I was a little bummed, but what really sent me over the edge is that I went to lunch after I got my paper back and a friend of mine asked, "How did it go?" And I said, "Not great. I got a B minus. I'm, you know, bummed, 'cause I worked so hard on it." And she put her hand over her heart and was like, "I am so sorry." Like someone had died. And so then I started getting really worked up like, "Oh my God. I guess, yeah, I am a total failure. It is comparable to someone dying." Sorry I am screaming. I'm getting very worked up. But I called Mom, crying because, you know, even though I'm 19 years old, we still revert back to, you know, calling our mom and she said--
Carrie: "Mommy?"
Ellie: "Mommy," which I still call her on occasion. I need to work on that.
Carrie: I do, too, though.
Ellie: I mean, yeah. But uh, I called my mom and I was like, "I got a B minus on this paper." And I was sobbing hysterically. I could barely get the words out. And I'll never forget. Immediately, she said, "Call me when you've composed herself," and hung up on me. And I was like, "Geez, that's very harsh."
Ellie: And so I called her again and, you know, I was more calm and we talked about it and she said, "Ellie, I'm not, you know, sending you and paying for you to go to Yale so that you can get A's all the time. If you want to learn, you have to, like, you can't expect to get A's. How are you going to learn? You know, what's this, you're not, you're not starting from a place of, uh, needing improvements. So what is--you know what I mean?"
Carrie: That's a very hard reality to deal with, though. If I got a B minus in college, sorry, I know this is annoying to say, but I did, in my whole transcript, I got one B.
Ellie: That's amazing.
Carrie: Well, yes, but it really bothers me. And that was a class that was so hard for me. It was, like, for a requirement, it was a game theory class.
Carrie: But I remember, I was like, I think, I can't remember if I talked about this in the last episode, but in high school, if I had studied really hard for a test, and obviously it's always math. History, if you study and you know it, you're going to do well, at least for me.
Ellie: Definitely.
Carrie: If it's a math test and I just, like, something isn't working, like I'm not, I'm just not getting it, I would freak the F out. Like, it's honestly embarrassing. Hyperventilating. Anyways, flash forward to college. I was crying during my midterm. Yeah. Yes. Being good, resiliency. I just..
Carrie: Mom was also not the kind of person who was ever, has ever been afraid to fail. And I think that has to do with her parents, but, you know, Mom, I think got a D in biology in high school and she had to leave the cheerleading squad.
Ellie: Right. So I called her back, you know, at first I was still upset and I was like, "I can't believe you're being so callous, cruel. Way harsh, Tai." But you know, I think, I still remember it to this day, and I think it really, I know it was just one paper, but that, that stayed with me. And I think after that, I've kind of cut myself some slack.
Ellie: And I got to rewrite the paper and I eventually, you know, moved my grade up. But, you know, and of course I would have liked to get an, an A minus the first time around. But I think it was a really good learning experience for me, where I actually got better at something.
Carrie: Yes, go off. I love that. I would have not recovered from that. I think Stanford had grade inflation, at least in the humanities.
Ellie: Well, I think what's also so hard talking, you know, transitioning to us being out of college. You and I were both--you even more so--were extremely academic, and continue to be super academic. And we need a footnote section for everything you mentioned, all the different scholars and whatnot. But I think that it, it's hard going from such a structured environment where your, your goals are very clear. You study, you work hard, you get the grade, you succeed, you check that box. And the careers that you and I have both chosen, me in TV writing and you in, you know, journalism, are really--
Carrie: I don't know if I would even call it that anymore.
Ellie: Well, I mean, like, it's... everything's super circuitous and, um, it's just not as clear, you know, as school.
Carrie: Yeah. And then it becomes... everything is about self promotion, like back to what we were discussing earlier. And I think I had this fantasy, though, you know, a lot of things are happening. As I mentioned, the breakup, the altercation with the neighbor, the loneliness, not feeling like I'm using my potential in my job, feeling like I'm unsuccessful, feeling just like a freaking loser.
Carrie: I had this fantasy, though, where with Laura, I'm like, "Well what if I became famous in my own right somehow? I become a, an Instagram or internet personality or something, or, you know, a pop star?
Ellie: Basically, it's something that would buffer you from the cruel treatment.
Carrie: Yeah. And I had this fantasy of, like, in two years or something, she sees a picture of me in a magazine, or she sees me in two years from now, I'm on a billboard. I don't know for what, but she, and then she's like, "Oh my God. This is so embarrassing."
Carrie: Or if I became some kind of, you know, character, movie actress. I had this fantasy of her husband masturbating to me.
Ellie: Oh wow, that's deep.
Carrie: And yeah. I went layers deep. And she, like, walks in or something.
Ellie: So you make her, you make her into a cuckold basically with her husband?
Carrie: Yeah. Yeah. And then--
Ellie: She's watching you fuck her husband?
Carrie: Well no, no, no. He's masturbating.
Ellie: Got it. Got it. I'm sorry.
Carrie: I don't even know. I don't even remember him. Don't remember.
Ellie: They can't even handle your touch.
Carrie: Yeah.
Ellie: Because you are so above them and they are such puny ant people. Totally. I've had the same famous revenge plot.
Carrie: And then the ex-boyfriend sees me, like, has to see me on TV or something.
Ellie: Right, so everyone who's wronged you sees this.
Carrie: Yeah. Every, yeah. And I am not a loser anymore.
Ellie: I mean listen, it is the core thesis of Taylor Swift's hit "Mean."
Carrie: Yeah, that's true. But this is the context for my sudden but also not-so-sudden, familiar feeling. But this epiphany: I want to be a star.
Carrie: And I think I called Ellie's friend Jacqueline Toboni, who's a successful actor and is on the L Word reboot. I was like, "How do you audition for things?"
Ellie: Did you actually talk to her about this? You reached out to her.
Carrie: Yeah, I want to be a star. She actually thought it was a really good idea for me, honestly--
Ellie: On, that's nice. I should've been, I should've been more, I should have been more supportive. I'm sorry. When she, I got a manic call one, one day.
Carrie: This all happened in one day.
Ellie: She said she wanted to be a star and she wanted to be an actress and she needed to talk to Jacqueline. And I, you know, I love you. I just, I want to support you, but I did feel like it was this manic thing. But maybe it's not.
Carrie: And then I call Martha Epstein, my friend, who is a stage actor and--
Ellie: Classically trained in the theater.
Carrie: ...which is impossible. Yeah. And Martha agreed to go on Instagram Live with me that night. And I was using my finsta.
Ellie: It was experimental.
Carrie: It was. I was experimenting a bit with the medium. Because when I talked to my friend Camila, my best friend since third grade, she said, "I totally agree. And what you need to do is make your Instagram public and start, you know, what are you good at?" And, and she was like, "I think you're really good at looking at low culture through an academic lens." I mean, I don't think she said it that way, but that's what I took from it. And, "I think you should like, do something with that." And I'm like, "Okay, so I'm going to make seminars about low culture."
Carrie: I mean, let's start with Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. That ended up being a huge hit. I still think that's probably my best one to date. I ended up doing one about Lindsay Lohan and, like, globalization.
Ellie: That was a great one.
Carrie: So the Mormon one was about manifest destiny, the American Jeremiad. It was called, like, Joseph Smith--
Ellie: Sorry. What's it called? The profitable?
Carrie: Huh? The prosperity gospel? Uh, it was a little bit about that. It was more just, like, about Mormonism--
Ellie: and Heather Gay joined.
Carrie: Well, that was afterwards. The Mormonism one really got a lot of views. And then, you know, I had to keep up with the momentum. So on Valentine's Day, I did this weird Instagram Live where I was opening this old box of Valentines with all this rotten candy, and I was treating my mosaic work cluster with the free spray. And I was like, I am going to, I was, like, acting like a weird vlogger but what else is going to do is alone. Valentine's day, whatever. I bought myself flowers at Cinderella, and I'm on Instagram Live and then Heather Gay requests to join, Heather Gay of Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. And she loved my programming, and we really connected. She let me interview her for an hour!
Carrie: Yeah. I know, you guys, to be not a pothead, but I was high out of my mind, by the way. And--
Ellie: She's so great.
Carrie: Out of my mind. But it actually went pretty well. Or maybe I was drunk. I don't know.
Ellie: I think it went great. I think she is wonderful. I love that she was so enthusiastic and supportive of you. Like an awesome girl mom , which she is.
Carrie: Yes, she so is. And then I kept doing these Instagram Lives. You know, I mentioned the Lindsay Lohan. It was like Lindsay Lohan disassociation in the age of the global image.
Ellie: That's a great one because you talked about Susan Sontag.
Carrie: Yeah, it was. But then I was taking it way too seriously 'cause it was like the second one. And I, when I watched it back, I was like, I, my eyebrows furrow the whole time and it was so weird.
Carrie: Um, and I did another one about like mukbang and dissociative seeing. And I think I did that one in the context of, uh, what's his name? John Berger "Ways of Seeing."
Carrie: But, um, I basically was gaining a little bit of a following. And that was how this whole saga with this woman that we're going to call Meredith began.