In the premiere episode of All Each Other Has, sisters Ellie and Carrie delve into what it was like being raised by their famous mother Katie Couric during her time at the Today Show (when everyone loved Mom) and at the CBS Evening News (when everyone hated Mom). Citing C. Kurzman et al.'s 2007 article "Celebrity Status," they explore the four kinds of privilege afforded celebrities: interactional, normative, economic, and legal. Carrie and Ellie reflect on whether their desire to be "perfect," particularly in high school, stemmed from a need to prove they were more than their mother's daughters, and how others' recognition of Mom's fame can unmoor their senses of self. Some important concepts cited are Marcuse's performance principle, Berger's "Ways of Seeing," Skeggs & Wood's "spectacular selfhood," and Andrejevic's "the work of being watched."
Ellie: Today on All Each Other Has, we're going to discuss a topic that is really interesting to both Carrie and me, and something we have experienced most of our lives, which is fame by proxy or proximity to fame.
Carrie: So, I actually prefer the former title because obviously we're both interested in Munchausen by proxy.
Ellie: Of course.
Carrie: And I like that kind of partnership.
Ellie: I know what you mean. It sounds fancier than proximity to fame, but I would argue, Carrie, if we're getting into the verbiage, if that's the right word, I would say that proximity of fame is much more my experience because I don't ever feel like I have been famous for having mom be my mom.
Carrie: And for me--that's so interesting that you bring that up. By the way we didn't, hadn't even rehearsed that. That's just off the cuff. Amazing. Um, for me, it's more fame by proxy because as we'll, discuss later on in the program, I am a micro, micro, micro influencer, due in large part to matrilineal fame. And that has honestly caused a lot of interesting times in my life that we can get into later.
Ellie: We'll delve into later. But yes, Carrie is a micro, micro, micro influencer, although maybe just micro, micro. She has the blue check mark and everything.
Carrie: I don't have a blue check.
Ellie: Okay. Nevermind. She has no blue check mark in my mind. You do, but yeah, we're going to delve into all of this. Thank you for joining our therapy session. So, as we mentioned in the introduction, I'm Ellie and I'm talking to my sister, Carrie, and we grew up in New York City with a single mom, Katie Couric, who was the co-host of the Today Show at what I would argue is the peak of its success and place in the zeitgeist.
Carrie: Agreed.
Ellie: And we wanted to start this podcast because, I dunno, I think my sister's really interesting and brings out the best in me. And we wanted to talk about what it was like growing up with our mom, being our mom.
Carrie: But that's just for this episode.
Ellie: Just for this episode, just to get--
Carrie: But maybe it'll be a recurring theme 'cause it is in our lives.
Ellie: Definitely. So Carrie--
Carrie: I also want to say one reason, though, that we wanted to make this podcast is--no, I think it's good. It makes us relatable. Ellie's shaking her head for me, not to say this. Honestly, it was born out of a Friday evening breakdown for me, where I came to my sister and felt like, "I'm not successful, I'm not this, I'm unhappy." And she said, "We should start a podcast."
Ellie: The logical reaction, I guess.
Carrie: No, but I do think the reason for that is she thinks I'm interesting, I think she's interesting. And we just wanted to create something that we enjoyed, that--
Ellie: That was wholly our own.
Carrie: Yes.
Ellie: And remember, we're all each other has.
Carrie: All each other has. We did it at the same time.
Ellie: So quick, quick backstory to that is growing up, we fought all the time. We were four and a half years apart, five grades apart, which when you're younger is basically like being from another generation. And we fought a lot and, you know, she was the annoying little sister, I was the mean older sister, but, um, Mom would plead with us, "Please get along. Please get along. You guys are sisters, you're all each other has." And we always thought that was so funny that she would say that, because while we clearly aren't all each other has--we have a wonderful mom, a wonderful stepdad, step siblings, um, I have a husband, uh, we have great friends and we have--
Carrie: and pets.
Ellie: We have two cats and one dog between us. We have, we have very full, happy lives, but I think there are some--
Carrie: [SCOFFS]
Ellie: Or, we're working on them, uh, this is part of it, part of filling that cup. But, um, we are, at the heart of it, I think, all each other has. You know, nobody gets us like we do. Do you think, don't you agree, Carrie?
Carrie: I agree.
Ellie: Yes. So, anyway, without further ado, let's open up this conversation. So Carrie, I wanted to know what was your earliest memory of realizing that Mom wasn't like other moms, that Mom was famous?
Carrie: I guess my earliest memories of Mom's fame have to do with her access to other more famous people.
Ellie: Totally.
Carrie: Or people who, for us, were, you know, everything. And I guess my earliest memories are going to the Today Show all the time. I think probably I'm thinking of, like, early elementary school, especially on days where, you know, it was a holiday weekend or, you know, we had Monday off. Mom would say, "Do you want to come to work with me today?" And I'd say, "Yeah, of course!"
Carrie: It was so fun. It was a special thing that we did. And we woke up at like 5:30 AM. She would shower, I'd sleep a little more. And then we'd get into the car with Jack, who was the NBC driver. And it was just the most fun being there. All of the crew would treat us like, I don't know, we were these amazing, spectacular little children.
Ellie: Everyone was so nice. And it just seems so glamorous, you know, all the studio lights. But before we even got there, you know, we'd go and, you know, Mom would get her hair and makeup done in her office. And then, you know, we could go during the--
Carrie: We'd go into that kitchenette and we'd get bagels--
Ellie: It was the green, you go into the green room.
Carrie: Right. But the green room is really for the guests.
Ellie: Right, right. But we'd get all this food and then we'd get our hair and makeup done. And we got to meet all of our idols. Destiny's Child, Britney Spears, Hilary Duff, LeAnn Rimes. It was just so fun.
Carrie: And also, I just want to say whenever I would go to the Today Show, two things that I want to say. One, I went through a phase where I love to have freckles painted on my face.
Ellie: Honestly, that's that's in now. So you were ahead of the game.
Carrie: I know, it is in now, but when I did it, it was like, it looked like Raggedy Ann, and it wasn't like speckled freckles. You know, it was, like, just dots on my face.
Ellie: Like you were wearing a costume.
Carrie: Yeah, like done with, um, eyeliner, like brown lip liner or something. And I would have them do that to me and I'd have my hair straightened.
Carrie: But you know, when you're sitting, getting your hair done or actually it doesn't have to be in that context at all.
Ellie: Are you talking about the mirrors upon mirrors upon mirrors upon mirrors?
Carrie: Yes. Yes.
Ellie: So trippy.
Carrie: That's exactly what I'm talking about. That is where I saw that for the first time, because both of the walls facing each other were mirrored. I remember looking at myself in the mirror and--
Ellie: It's a never ending hall of mirrors. It's insane.
Carrie: You get, you're getting smaller and smaller. It's, it's crazy to think about, and to see, and to remember it, the first time.
Ellie: I totally remember. And it reminds me of in Man Men when Sally Draper's talking to her friend, Glen Bishop about the Land O' Lakes butter girl, and that she's holding a Land O' Lakes butter box on which she's also painted holding a Land O' Lakes butter box. And where does it end?
Carrie: It's also like the picture, I think, of Ryan Gosling is wearing a shirt with young Macaulay Culkin on it.
Ellie: Yes.
Carrie: Then Macaulay Culkin is photographed wearing a shirt with Ryan Gosling, wearing a shirt with Macaulay Culkin, right. Ad nauseum. Is that how you use that term?
Ellie: Yes. Ad nauseum. I think that's the perfect use of that Latin phrase. So anyway, getting back to our first memories, I would say for me, there was no memory of a clear switch going off that Mom was different. You know, it was something I kind of think I've always been aware of. At the same time, I totally normalized people being on TV because Carrie, before you were born or when, you know, Mom was pregnant with you, actually, is when our dad, who has since passed away--he passed away, gosh, almost 25 years ago, and we're going to talk about that, too--when Mom, when Mom was pregnant with you and the O.J. Simpson trial was happening, our dad, Jay Monahan, who was a lawyer, he started working as a legal commentator on MSNBC. So both my parents at one time were on television.
Carrie: But would you watch him on TV?
Ellie: No, but I just, you know, I knew he was, and I saw him on and those were, you know, the two of them were going to a studio to do their thing and get their hair and makeup done and be on air. You know, I thought that's what all parents did it on some level, you know?
Carrie: I'm trying to think though, of whether you know, being born into that, and obviously, we were born in a time where we're looking at screens all the time or, you know, there's like this oversaturated video landscape, we're living in Sontag's feared "department store without walls" where every person, every object, everything is--
Ellie: On display?
Carrie: No. On display, yes. But becomes an object of appraisal, this image world. Okay. Anyways, did you see Mom and did you see our dad on TV as a child? Did it lead you to kind of disassociate the person from the image?
Ellie: No, and to me, they were very much one in the same. And to me, there really were no downsides of Mom being who she was. You know, getting to meet Britney Spears and see her perform on the plaza. We got to go to the Olympics in 2000, we went to Sydney, Australia, which was amazing. We were so little.
Carrie: In 2002 we went to Salt Lake City. 2004 Athens.
Ellie: Yeah.
Carrie: And I think that was probably the last one.
Ellie: Right.
Ellie: And, you know, in, in Sydney, I mean, it was so cool to go to Australia when we were so young, and I'm still mad about the fact that I had to put a temporary American flag tattoo on my cheek because it ruined all the photos, especially when it started--
Carrie: Oh, I think it's great.
Ellie: Especially when it started coming off. But we got to--
Carrie: No, I think it's great having that in the photos because, I mean, it's symbolic of so many things. I was about to say post 9/11, but this is obviously pre 9/11. But just the kind of patriotism. Well, I guess it's the Olympics, that's when all of a sudden everyone comes together and is like, "USA! USA!"
Ellie: Right.
Carrie: And everyone loves Team USA, blah, blah, blah. Anyways, I think it's great that you have that on because it says so much about context.
Ellie: Also about my age.
Carrie: About your age, about your patriotism, maybe about the War on Terror.
Ellie: It was a great trip, and, you know, we got to see Misty May-Treanor and Kerri Walsh. I think those are their names--
Carrie: She's an anti-vaxxer, though, by the way, Kerri Walsh.
Ellie: Well, at the time, they were amazing beach volleyball players. So we got to see them play on Bondi Beach. All the swimming, I remember really well. And, you know, the coolest thing was that, you know, I was in fourth grade at the time and we were each assigned an athlete in my class to do a presentation on. And everybody else, you know, just had a poster board with their athlete, basic bio, their story and all that. But I got to interview my athlete, who was Michael Johnson, the runner, track and field runner who famously wore 24 karat gold Nike's to race in. But it's funny, you know, I think I, I was sort of embarrassed of the fact that I did that, but you know, also couldn't say no, because it was just such a cool opportunity, bless his heart for--
Carrie: Embarrassed at the time?
Ellie: Well, just that, you know, I went, so, you know, I was there, it was just such a different presentation from my classmates, you know? Cause I--
Carrie: Oh, you were embarrassed when you got back to school, I thought you meant--
Ellie: Yeah, of course. Not at the time I, you know, bless him for taking the time to be interviewed by a fourth grader, um, but it was really cool. So there are things like that that were amazing.
Ellie: Let's not forget when I was in middle school and going through my awkward phase, you know, which lasted a long time, when we were in Vogue and Patrick Demarchelier photographed us.
Carrie: Yes, we have been photographed by Patrick Demarchelier!
Ellie: Who just passed away. So, rest in peace, Patrick.
Carrie: But I also heard some weird things about him. But yeah, I guess, rest in peace.
Ellie: So anyways, we were in a photoshoot with him. Obviously, at the time, that, the "wow" factor of that did not dawn on us. I mean, Carrie was so young. I was so awkward. I remember being really upset that they wanted to style my hair curly because I hated my curly hair and all I wanted was to have it straight and I threw a hissy fit. And I remember Mom getting really mad at me. And, you know, I think it's just a good reminder that kids are kids. No matter where you put them, you put them in a Patrick Demarchelier shoot, they don't really get it. You know, you put them in front of Michael Johnson, they're going to be awkward about it. You know?
Ellie: It's, it's funny, you know? What were other fun things that we got to do growing up?
Carrie: Hm. Well, I was going to say one thing that I just remembered just now. This is more funny than fun, or at least at the time I saw it as funny. When Mom was dating "redacted," who lived in LA, and it was the first relationship after our dad died, and it was at a time our mom was super famous, so people cared a lot and tabloids were very into this. I mean, uh, relatively. Um, what was I going to say? Oh yeah, yeah. I remember. Mom was taking a walk in the park with our friend.
Ellie: Yes.
Carrie: Do you know who I'm talking about?
Ellie: I do know who you're talking about. Who's no longer our friend because of his continued friendship with "redacted" boyfriend.
Carrie: Right. Sorry. I really wanted this Hi-Chew so badly.
Ellie: That's fine.
Carrie: Can I?
Ellie: Okay, well, we'll wait for a second.
Carrie: Okay. I'm good. Sorry. Um, but what I was going to say is that Mom was photographed taking a walk around the reservoir with "redacted," who was married. We were just very good family, friends with the couple, with the whole family. And I don't know the tabloids--Star, Us Weekly or something--published the photo and said that it was "redacted," or something like that, or it was some "mystery man." I don't know something.
Ellie: It's funny, I have a, I have a different memory of that story. The story is that Mom was dating "redacted" boyfriend, who was very powerful. I don't know how much I can say. Whatever.
Carrie: He was powerful in Hollywood.
Ellie: In Hollywood.
Carrie: It wasn't Harvey Weinstein, okay?
Ellie: It was not Harvey Weinstein. But she was also good friends with let's call him "Joe." Joe and Mom were very good friends. Joe is no longer our friend because of his continued friendship with "redacted." But one time Joe and Mom were in Central Park going on a walk and they spotted paps, as they say, paparazzi, hiding in the bushes. And so, they put on this whole show where, you know, they started giving each other shoulder massages and kind of canoodling. And then, of course, it was printed in the National Enquirer: Katie Couric and Mystery Man. But anyway, funny story.
Carrie: Okay. I see, I remember that, too. I think that was right after we took that trip to Provence during the tragic heat wave in 2003.
Ellie: But how lucky are we that we got to go to Provence?
Carrie: And we bought a lot of those peasant skirts and were really into them. And I look so cute on the, those pictures from that trip. I think that's the hottest, prettiest I've ever been in my life. I was like 7.
Ellie: Oh my God, Carrie, you were like--
Carrie: I know I wore, like, I look like Bella Hadid. I looked so cool. I look, I look like a Balenciaga model in all of those pictures. Um...
Ellie: So, let's go back to what were the good things about Mom being famous? I remember that, you know, she just really hooked it up. And my sixth grade birthday party was a screening of the Lizzie McGuire movie, which was so fun. And then we had dinner at this Midtown institution known as Fresco, Fresco by Scotto, which we will--
Carrie: Scoe-toe.
Ellie: I didn't-- really, Scoe-toe? It's not Scott-o? Okay, well, Fresco, which we will be returning to in a later episode. You know, I also had a birthday party where we got our hair done at the famed hair salon, Louis Licari. Mom enjoyed a 50% off discount at Bloomingdale's on everything. And, you know, we would go to this Rockefeller Center J Crew where we also got 50%, and that was amazing.
Ellie: I also wanted to bring up going to restaurants, and it's not as effective these days, but in the past, Mom could get a reservation anywhere, same day. You know, sometimes, to this day, we'll call a restaurant, you know, a fancy restaurant or, you know, trendy restaurant on a Thursday afternoon or Friday afternoon, and ask for dinner for two to four people for 7, 7:30, and the maitre D' will invariably laugh in our faces over the phone, and Mom will say, "Well, can I just leave you my name in case something opens up?" And she does. And sometimes she has to spell it out, which is awkward, but what used to happen--
Carrie: When they, when they ask how to spell it, they don't know.
Ellie: Exactly. That's always the kiss of death. But, you know, maybe an older manager or someone will know. But Mom will say her name, and when it works. The maitre D' will say, "Can you hold a moment?" And then do some rearranging, and then come back and say, "We can accommodate you." And that's something that is not lost on us, that privilege.
Ellie: And I think, you know, we've been talking a lot about how to manage feelings of guilt with enjoying perks of being Mom's kids, and being close to her. You know, I've told Carrie there are a lot of negatives that come with it. So I have decided in recent years to just embrace the good, because there has been some bad. So, um, I would just like to bring up the restaurant thing. And whenever we go to these restaurants and amuse bouche is always sent to the table to start things off. Wouldn't you say?
Carrie: I mean, I would say what you're describing is what we would have gone through like 10 or 15 years ago. Sorry to say. Maybe that happens sometimes now, but when we--
Ellie: In LA it definitely, it does in LA, but maybe that's because LA is LA. Interesting.
Carrie: Um, what you just brought up, though, is what is called interactional privilege, which is one of the four privileges of celebrity that are spelled out in this journal article from 2007 I was reading called "Celebrity Status." But there are four types of celebrity privileges, according to this article.
Carrie: One is celebrity in person. So that's interactional privilege. Being famous affects how other people treat you. So that's interactional privilege. So that would be what you just described, right?
Carrie: Then there's normative privilege. What do you think that means, El?
Ellie: You mean just special treatment they get all the time? I don't know.
Carrie: Mm mm. So normative privilege means that when you're famous, other people imitate you and copy you.
Ellie: Interesting.
Carrie: So it, it's normative privilege because people are copying you. So what you're doing is fine and okay and mainstream.
Ellie: Interesting. Does this, is that about what clothes and makeup you wear or is it about how you act?
Carrie: And what you look like, what do you look like. You know, like think of, uh, normative privilege. An example would be... Okay, here's a good example: the Kardashians. Getting a million surgeries, BBLs. Everybody has imitated how they look, right?
Ellie: Right.
Carrie: Read the Jia Tolentino article about "Instagram Face." And when you put something in vogue, and then everyone starts to do it, it makes what you're doing, like, normal.
Carrie: The third kind of privilege that comes with celebrity is economic privilege. So that might mean sponsorships with brands, promos, getting sent free stuff.
Ellie: Discounts.
Carrie: An amuse bouche coming to the table, discounts. This is us when we were kids getting, we had some kind of a crazy discount at Bloomingdale's, literally just because of Mom, and a personal shopper at Bloomingdale's.
Carrie: And then one is legal privilege, which, you know, you see with like, OJ.
Ellie: Right. I mean, look at Jeffrey Epstein. I mean, obviously--
Carrie: But he wasn't a celebrity. But yeah, obviously you're going to have legal privilege if you're rich, too.
Ellie: But you know, what's interesting is within New York, I would argue he was a celebrity in the, in the New York social scene.
Carrie: Okay. Yeah.
Ellie: But it's interesting when we think about mom operating in that as well. You know, that--
Carrie: Jeffrey Epstein's dinner party?
Ellie: Well--
Carrie: Everyone knows, it's in the book, that Mom went to the Jeffrey Epstein dinner party--
Ellie: She did, and she went because Prince Andrew was there. And George Stephanopoulos was there, and she was about to be covering the Queen's Diamond Jubilee, and she wanted an in with Prince Andrew.
Carrie: And she was invited by Peggy--
Ellie: Peggy Siegal.
Carrie: Peggy Siegal, kind of legendary publicist in New York. Uh, it was billed as a, basically a dinner with Prince Andrew at the largest single family home in Manhattan. And my mom went. Yeah, never forget.
Ellie: And she did notice that all of the waitresses and the girls checking people, guests in and taking their coats were all very young. Um--
Carrie: Lasagna was served. That's the famous line in the New York Times article, "Lasagna was served." And that was provided by Mom, by the way.
Ellie: Oh, gosh. The other funny thing Mom ate once at a very wealthy person's house is--
Carrie: I love this.
Ellie: At Bloomberg's, at Mike Bloomberg house, or Gracie Mansion when they had a date--
Carrie: No, no, Mike--oh, yeah! Mike Bloomberg did not live at Gracie Mansion because his own house was nicer.
Ellie: No, of course not. It was a DUMP compared to his house.
Carrie: But he's had Mom to dinner at Gracie Mansion.
Ellie: Yes.
Carrie: For the experience, basically.
Ellie: Yes. And he served franks and beans, which I thought was really interesting.
Carrie: Franks and beans, 'cause he's from Boston.
Ellie: Yeah.
Carrie: That is so unbelievably weird, isn't it?
Ellie: It is really weird. But I just wanted to say, getting back to the, so the four kinds of privilege that you talked about when it comes to being a celebrity, you know, that obviously is not enjoyed equally by every celebrity, of course, goes without saying. Hello, Captain Obvious. But, you know, I think growing up our mom, you know, she still is a baller, but our mom was really famous, very well-known. You know, but she did such a good job to make sure that we were raised with character and appreciation of everything we had. Wouldn't you say?
Carrie: [LAUGHS]
Ellie: I just want to point that out because it sounds like, "Oh, 50% off!" You know, it, she still policed everything. You know, she still went shopping with us. We didn't go there by ourselves.
Carrie: Also, it's about leading by example, right? I mean, Mom--
Ellie: Yeah.
Carrie: Yeah, she has nice things.
Ellie: But she's also the least materialistic--
Carrie: She mostly wears, she mostly wears Talbot's.
Ellie: She loves Talbot's, and she loves--
Carrie: She loves J Crew--
Ellie: T-shirts that are sent to her. She loves Madewell.
Carrie: She loves Madewell.
Ellie: And, um, what kind of sneakers does she wear? Like off-brand--
Carrie: She wears like off-brand Stan Smiths.
Ellie: She likes Rothy's as well. But I just want to say that, you know, okay now she wears and she wears Madewell and random t-shirts that she thinks are funny--
Carrie: She has no street style whatsoever.
Ellie: At all. None whatsoever.
Carrie: She unironically, in almost a way that makes her cool, she loves, like, a graphic tee that is sent to her for free--
Ellie: That says something like, "I'm not for everyone," or,
Carrie: Or "social distancing expert," or, like--
Ellie: I guess she makes, almost makes cheugy cool.
Carrie: She does. Well, that's because she never buys it. She just will get sent something and it'll say something dumb and she'll be like, "Oh yeah, that's so true."
Ellie: Yeah. She's like the least materialistic person ever.
Carrie: No, but she very earnestly accepts the cheugy statement as like "Yeah!" "Yeah, like, I, I feel that! Totally!" Like, what's an example?
Ellie: Like, you mean like when she gets a shirt?
Carrie: "I'm not bossy. I'm the boss." She wears that, like, "That's so true. This is my truth." She's like speaking her truth with the cheugy shirt that she was sent for free.
Carrie: Please stop sending our mom most free stuff, uh, because she never gets rid of anything. She's, I love her to death, but she's a clutter bug.
Ellie: She is.
Carrie: But some of the stuff that we're sent it's, it's so ridiculous. We have no use for it. I mean, I did like, I want to thank, I want to personally thank Our Place pan for sending my mom one, because now that is my pan. Things like that, things like, and it's an, it's an amazing non-stick pan. You can steam in it. It's really cool, actually.
Ellie: Isn't it like seven in one?
Carrie: Um, not quite
Ellie: Okay.
Carrie: I mean, if Creuset could send some stuff, great. Um, I would love, uh, like a casserole dish or something or a Dutch oven. But some of you just need to stop sending stuff because--I'm sorry, I sound like such a bitch, but it's, and so ungrateful, but like we don't need--well, you know, we got sent to mom's house, Mom got sent, I should say, an organizer tool filled with candy. And each little drawer was a different color. I think it was from some Netflix show, like Getting Organized, not Marie Kondo. Anyways, that's just an example. Like, we still have that disgusting candy.
Ellie: Yeah, I bet.
Carrie: Or honestly, when a certain New York nonprofit, I found this kind of disturbing, sent a gift basket because she did some like 15 minute Instagram live for them. And this is a nonprofit that deals with hunger in New York, they sent her an insane gift basket. And Adriana and I went through--Adriana is our mom's assistant. She's like another sister to us--Adriana and I went through it, and it was like a whole entire lobster. It was Wagyu beef. It was, I think there must have been caviar. It was like the most expensive food ever.
Ellie: Sounds awesome.
Carrie: I mean was just crazy. Like, why are you spending money on this? You could buy so many meals for New Yorkers. This is so weird. It just goes to show you how mismanaged non-profits can be just in terms of the way they budget things. I do think maybe we should have a later podcast on philanthropy reform.
Carrie: We should just quickly say what more of the good things are. I mean, I wrote about this in my Sub Stack a while ago, which you can subscribe to. It's called Feline Acne. Link in bio. Please like and subscribe. Um, I did talk about how, when I was a little girl, I would get a real thrill and sense of power when we'd walk into some restaurant, or often it was a Broadway show, basically when we'd leave our neighborhood, a very residential neighborhood. I mean,
Ellie: Woody Allen lived on our block.
Carrie: Not quite on our block, but yes.
Ellie: Phoebe Cates.
Carrie: Yeah. Blue Tree. Please shop Blue Tree. Use promo "Wet Hot American Summer."
Ellie: She wasn't in that, but she was in "Fast Times at Ridgemont High."
Carrie: Oh yeah.
Ellie: It's fine.
Carrie: I'm sorry. Actually, Phoebe Cates is really amazing. Love her and love her store, please shop at Blue Tree.
Ellie: Yeah, we love.
Carrie: Anyway, when we would leave the enclave of the Upper East Side and go honestly to like Fresco, or go to a Broadway show, or go somewhere on vacation that had to be in the U.S., because Mom was a very famous person, but a very nationally famous person, which is different from being internationally famous, you know, the whole America's sweetheart moniker. I think that is part of the reason why I feel so very American. We both did American studies, by the way.
Carrie: So sorry, when we would leave the enclave of the Upper East Side--it's taking me forever to tell, but I, I don't know, I'm having fun doing it-- and we'd go to a restaurant, say we're in Fresco, and you hear other patrons, you know, and they've just come from a Broadway show or something, and they look like they're from out of town. And they'll say, "Oh my God, that's Katie Couric." And it was, it's like a half whisper. But it's like, when you're with a famous person, the other people don't care that, that you can hear what they say. Because if you're not famous, but you're, you know, you're in proximity to fame, that's, by the way called the, it's something in French, when you drop the title of something in the text itself? Mise en abyme.
Ellie: It would put me on edge when we would be led to the table. And it's the hostess or host, and they're leading Mom with us in tow,
Carrie: And at Fresco, the best table.
Ellie: Of course, but we would be in tow. And as soon as Mom passed, even if we were still passing the people who were looking at her, they would say, that's Katie Couric. And I would feel like, "Oh my God, I hope they don't say something, well, this comes later, but you know--
Carrie: But yes, you hope they don't say something bad.
Ellie: Exactly.
Carrie: Under their breath. Because in those moments, that's when being in proximity to fame makes one feel invisible, right?
Ellie: A hundred percent.
Carrie: You know, celebrity is all about spectacular selfhood, which is a phrase I wrote down from another article that I was reading about reality television.
Ellie: I love that, spectacular selfhood.
Carrie: Spectacular in that you're a spectacle, right? And you're being watched.
Carrie: Well, no it's just that your career is being you, to some extent.
Carrie: Yes. And that actually is interesting you say that. This person A. Hearn, writing about reality TV, it's about "the work of doing and watching oneself" and also "the work of being watched." And this is a very "Ways of Seeing" Berger thing, Herbert Marcuse performance principle. Human beings in this late stage of capitalism or whatever, they can't really just do things for the sake of doing them. It's all a performance that requires labor. Like even right now, I laugh. That was actually labor.
Carrie: So, um, yeah, Ellie, Ellie just went to get a drink of water and I'm--
Ellie: I'm actually not getting a drink of water. I'm having one of these can cannabis infused social tonics that my friends Sabine gave me.
Carrie: Oh, well. The work of being watched, Andrejevic. Anyways, walking into Fresco, being in physical proximity to a celebrity, and it's clear that you are with them, that you're part of the posse.
Ellie: Nobody sees you, like you said.
Carrie: Often the posse, you know, becomes--unless it's like a Taylor Swift posse where everybody is famous, right--when you're part of the non-famous posse, like when you're the body guard, when you're the personal assistant, and honestly, when you're the child, unless you're really famous, like I dunno, Angelina Jolie, and, you know, your children become famous just because you're famous.
Carrie: You were, I felt invisible a lot of the time. Yeah. It's this fear. She walks past, so they feel safe to say, "That's Katie Couric." But they don't, they don't care at all that we can hear.
Ellie: Not at all.
Carrie: At all. And it's always This fear or, or later on, especially as we got older, "Are they going to say something bad?"
Ellie: Are they going to say something bad? And it also ties into us feeling less than, and strange because we haven't emulated our mom's career. We haven't achieved that same level of success. And, um, we're not well known. We're not known by our names. And what that does to us on a psychological level is, I think, it makes us feel inferior in a lot of ways.
Carrie: I think it's definitely warped my perception of what success looks like. I feel a lot of times, "I'm 26. I haven't done this. I haven't made it." It's always like, "I haven't made it" as whatever it is I want to be, which is, you know, the jury's out on that right now/ but yeah, it's, it's always this feeling, and I, and I think Ellie, we were talking about this a bit the other day, how it's almost put a chip on my shoulder a little bit in that I feel, because of all the privileges that come from proximity to fame or, you know, to having a famous parent specifically, um, it's put like a chip on my shoulder where I feel like I need to prove that I achieved this because I worked to achieve it, not because it was handed to me.
Carrie: And that's kind of difficult because, you know, in so many ways, so many things were handed to us by virtue of, I guess, in this way, I'm talking more about wealth than fame. Like we got to go to Trinity or we got to go to Spence or we got to have a tutor for math.
Ellie: Have a tutor for our ACTs. We got to go to college and not have any student debt.
Carrie: We got to live close to school where we got enough sleep every night. We didn't have to help out with family stuff. We had a stable home life, et cetera, et cetera. Like those things are things that set one up for success. But I always felt like when I was in an environment like Trinity--or, I think more Trinity than Spence and honestly, more Trinity than Stanford, Trinity High School NYC, that is--that I felt so much pressure to prove that yes, I was this person's child and I'm really actually smart, and I get all A's, and I work really hard.
Carrie: So that when the time came to apply for college, and I really, really, really wanted to go to Stanford and I had worked really, really hard in high school--Ellie and I both, we were crazy about grades in a way that was super unhealthy. I mean, that's common at a lot of these schools, but to the point where, like, in ninth grade, when you were in college already, I was pulling all nighters all the time so that I could memorize every little thing for a history test. And then often I would get so anxious for the test that I would, I would fake, fake sick out of anxiety. And I think, talking about celebrity privilege, I think my teachers, excused that, you know, sometimes I was sick the day of a test, or I think, this was really freshman year for the most part, I think that my teachers knew that I was a very conscientious student because of how I would act in class, how my assignments were, et cetera, et cetera, that if I was miraculously sick, the day of a test, I think they excused it, but I think they also excused it because of Mom. I think if anyone else was missing that much school, I mean, it wasn't like in an insane amount of school, but it was like, you would think I had a chronic illness, and I did not.
Ellie: That's wild.
Carrie: I just had anxiety.
Ellie: Yeah, I, it's it's, it's definitely... what you're talking about is something I've definitely struggled with, too. But I never felt it that acutely.
Carrie: You didn't feel like that in high school? That especially when you were, you know, applying to Yale, that if you were to get going to get in, and if Mom had, Mom's name, or Mom's connection had helped you get in in some way, like somebody wrote you a letter, somebody got you a meeting with this person, that you had to prove that you actually deserved it by being the person who got all A's, who made the crazy study guides who, you know, took all the AP classes and then got fives on them? That you had to be absolutely perfect? So that when you got in, they couldn't say, "Oh, she only got in because of her mom is."
Ellie: You know, I agree with parts of that. I think I was extremely aware of the privileges that Mom's position and celebrity afforded me. You know, of course there was always going to be, because nothing exists in a vacuum, right, "I am not just me. I am somebody's daughter." And a mother who's in the public eye, uh, a lot of influence. Who isn't a movie star, but has real political and media ties in the microcosm of New York. Of course, I always had a little voice in the back of my head thinking, "Oh, is this teacher just nice to me because they want to get into Mom's good graces or they're hoping that Mom can speak at some forum or a panel or what? You know, there's always that voice.
Ellie: And I knew when I was looking at colleges that, you know, we, we definitely got special treatment, special tours. I got to meet with professors and deans and alumni, of course.
Carrie: And it was always like a weird private tour.
Ellie: Yes, but, but there were also other tours I have to say where we were a part of the crowd and Mom was so understated, a lot of people wouldn't even recognize her. And if they did, they did. But I would just say, in the cluster fuck of New York City private schools where the pressure is so, so high, and so many of these kids have not only famous parents, but extremely wealthy, well connected parents, everybody is, is greasing a certain wheel and looking for their angle.
Carrie: 'Cause all these schools care about is their endowment, by the way.
Ellie: Totally. And there's legacy, right? You know, I think everyone was kind of working it, and, and so I did not feel guilty about working it. And I feel like my drive to do so well was honestly related to Granny and Grandpa more than anything. Them, you know, me wanting to be an excellent student for them. I just remember Granny and Papa's names were invoked so much when we were growing up.
Ellie: When Lori Beth, our live-in nanny and second mom, basically, caught me smoking a cigarette in my bathroom one night, blowing it out the window, she said, you know, "What would your grandparents say?
Carrie: Mom still does that to me.
Ellie: Totally. I think that that was, that was huge, you know? I think, "What would they say?" I didn't feel like I had to prove that I was worthy because I knew I had really good grades and extracurriculars.
Carrie: But don't you feel like doing that was, was also part of trying to prove your worth, trying to get good grades in the first place?
Ellie: Totally, but I think, uh, you know, my situation in high school was also different because I was sort of bullied in high school and it was definitely exacerbated by the fact that Mom was who she was. And we'll get into that later.
Carrie: Exacerbated how?
Ellie: Well, I was just going to say that, you know, something happened in high school to me and I was bullied for it because, um, a kid got kicked out of school as a result. And it was seen as a witch hunt that my famous influential mother, you know, she was the puppet master and pulling all these strings to ruin a kid's life. And it was just, it was really shitty in so many ways, but the one upside is that because I wasn't really welcomed in the student lounge and at parties, I really had nothing to do but study.
Carrie: I see.
Ellie: Work on, you know, on my papers and work on my applications.
Carrie: And, and I think for both of us, our teachers became--
Ellie: Friends!
Carrie: Like, everything. Yes.
Ellie: I mean, yes.
Carrie: Give a shout out to Ms. Miller. Yeah. Carrie Ms. Mulvihill. Dr. Halper. Love you ladies. Okay, next.
Ellie: I guess we should talk about,
Carrie: But you were, you were... first of all, the incident itself was a bullying incident.
Ellie: Yeah. I was basically bullied for being bullied.
Carrie: Severe. Everything escalated and it became like a thing en masse. Like, you were ostracized because people thought that Mom had to do with what the school meted out as punishment for this person. When in reality, this was all decided by a disciplinary, it's called a disciplinary committee, which is made up of anonymous students and maybe faculty?
Ellie: Yeah.
Carrie: And when they receive a case to look at, I mean, it's very official. And the parent doesn't have a say in what happens.
Carrie: I also want to add that at these schools, when something happens like this, it's called being "asked to leave." You know, you don't get expelled, you get asked to leave and it doesn't go on your permanent record that you were expelled, it just will say you changed schools.
Carrie: And the person was asked to leave. That was, that was why Ellie was, you know, ostracized for that. And she really doesn't like talking about this, um, but I think that it's healthy to talk about it because it also is something that's really common and actually happened in my grade at Trinity too, and happened to a friend of mine from a different state when she was in high school, that kind of thing, where you're bullied for being bullied, or ostracized because something happened to you and the person got in trouble. Okay. And it's always a girl!
Ellie: I just wanted to say this was all happening at the same time that my mom was having a really hard time, that our mom was having a really hard time at CBS.
Ellie: She had left the today show after 15 great years of super high ratings and award-winning journalism. And she left in 2006 to be the first solo female anchor of the CBS Evening News and had left the Today Show riding high,
Carrie: And in public opinion in general, popular.
Ellie: Yes. And CBS was not all it was cracked up to be. You know, I think Mom wished that her reps and her team and she herself had sort of done a little more vetting and digging into the culture there.
Carrie: Also a dying, dying medium.
Ellie: Totally. And I think that there was such high expectations as she'd come in and completely turned things around ratings wise.
Carrie: Read about it and "Going There" or in the Rebecca Traister article in The Cut, "Katie Couric is not for everyone." Go on, Ellie.
Ellie: Um, I would say that was the first time, this is around 2007, 2008, when Mom faced negative press and it came from men, it came from women, it came from online--
Carrie: And widespread negative press, you know? It felt like "attack."
Ellie: When people know there's, you know, when people know how much you're being paid annually, and that number is crazy high, um, and then you don't deliver, people like to seize on that, um, because they resent that number and, you know, want to call people out as undeserving.
Carrie: Right. But this really took a toll on us, honestly, maybe even if I didn't realize it at the time. Also, this is coinciding with my--
Ellie: Eating disorder.
Carrie: Early days of puberty. Yeah. I was going to say early days of puberty, but yeah, that, too, where I think people become miserable and hormonal and unhappy and insecure.
Ellie: Gosh we were all, we were all having such a bad time.
Carrie: And then Ellie, Ellie is being bullied in high school.
Ellie: I have like, you know, shout out to my three friends in high school. But, you know, I had no friends and, um, Carrie was going through a hard time and Mom was dating a much younger guy who was fun at times, but also, you know, not the best partner for her, couldn't really handle what was going on.
Ellie: So the three of us were just in a bad way, I would say, in 2007, 2008, 2009, even.
Carrie: Yeah, honestly, 2010, and '11 for me, too.
Carrie: But so also around this time, specifically when I was in sixth grade is really my first memory of Mom's knownness affecting me negatively in a real way, or being freaked out by it, I guess I should say, was that I had a big Halloween party, boy/girl party in sixth grade, and it was catered. And the caterer stole our babysitter lori Beth's orange digital camera that she'd been using to take pictures at the party. And that I think on that, that SD card, it was also pictures from a vacation that we'd gone on.
Carrie: Stole the camera, tried to sell it to the National Enquirer saying that it contained "private photos" of Mom. It was really our babysitter's camera of a kid's Halloween party.
Carrie: And then, I guess, you went to college the next year. And can you say what happened before you even get to college?
Ellie: Sure. I had a bad high school experience and you know, my foray into social media and the internet was not a positive one, even in high school. Um, I, you know, I had been dumped by a boy in ninth grade and I wrote him a very emo heartfelt, uh, direct message on, I think this was Facebook, the early first, you know, Facebook 1.0.
Ellie: And you know, I went on his profile one night and he had posted the whole heartfelt letter I had written on his profile. So that was mortifying. And put my name and everything.
Carrie: With your name on it?
Ellie: Yeah, put my name on it and everything. And it was. You know, it was just a very, um, mushy gushy letter. I had been listening to a lot of Damian what's his name?
Carrie: Damien Rice?
Ellie: Rice.
Carrie: The Blower's Daughter?
Ellie: Totally.
Carrie: Probably cause it's was, it's featured in the O.C. soundtrack.
Ellie: And also the movie with Natalie Portman.
Carrie: Cannonball.
Ellie: Cannonball in the movie with Natalie--
Carrie: Garden State?
Ellie: It's called "Closer," with Clive Owen and--
Carrie: Oh! Oh, oh, oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ellie: And Jude Law and Julia Roberts. And anyway, I was just feeling it. I was, I was "GTS," as you say, "going through something."
Ellie: So, that was a negative experience. You know, the thing that happened to me in high school was that I was sent a harassing email. I just, I felt like it just was an unsafe, it was the wild, wild West, and it was unsafe.
Carrie: But also, we were also obsessed with using it.
Ellie: Of course, I think, you know, I, I embraced it wholeheartedly.
Carrie: Putting up albums all the time.
Ellie: Put up everything! I mean, you know, you know, really broadcasted myself as YouTube's first slogan asked me to, and you know, it really bit me in, it really bit me in the butt. Bit me in the butt?
Carrie: What happened? Bit me in the ass.
Ellie: Well--bit me in the ass. Well, once I got into Yale, uh, I joined the Yale Facebook network. So that would include anybody, you know, who was, who's going to Yale or has a yale.edu email address or whatever. And I guess I hadn't kept my photo albums on private, and I had a photo album that I cheekily in my 12th grade naivete called "four martini minimum." And it was from Mom's after party, the party after Mom's first evening broadcast. It was in the fall of 2006 at the Hudson Hotel. It was a Facebook album and it was filled with pictures from the party after Mom's first broadcast on the evening news.
Carrie: Three years prior.
Ellie: This party was at the Hudson Hotel. It was really fun. They had a band and dancing and it was a great party. Anyway, we were kids, but we had fun and you know, there's photos of my Mom drinking a martini. She was very stressed about the broadcast. So, you know, she, she needed it.
Ellie: And then, you know, she and her whole team that had been working so hard to put together the first broadcast, um, were really celebrating. Her producers, her booker, her publicist, her assistant--
Carrie: Her assistant
Ellie: You know, there's, there's, you know, I wouldn't call them lewd. They're just sort of silly and goofy photos.
Carrie: She loves to cut a rug and she loves to dance a little bit dirty.
Ellie: They're photos that, you know, pbviously, you know, she wouldn't want the public to see, but you know,
Carrie: She's reclaimed them.
Ellie: Cut to three years later, I've gone through this whole ordeal with being bullied in school, over a cyber incident. So, you know, I'm not feeling very good about the internet. And I finally, you know, I get into Yale and I'm so excited about this fresh start with a whole new group of people who don't know who I am. And I joined the Yale Facebook network and I must have not set my settings to, you know, the correct privacy mode because anyone in the Yale Facebook network evidently could access my photos.
Ellie: Cut to, I get a call from Mom's publicist at the time, freaked out saying a bunch of your photos from Facebook have been posted on Gawker and I was mortified and felt so stupid and it felt like it was such a violation.
Ellie: And that was really awful. And what's so creepy is that I, uh--
Carrie: I remember being really freaked out when that happened.
Ellie: Right? And what's so creepy is that I will never know who posted that. And it's so--
Carrie: Yeah, if it's somebody that you ended up becoming friends with--
Ellie: Luckily--
Carrie: Is it Katie Ballaine?
Ellie: Luckily it didn't--
Carrie: Is it you, Katie Ballaine?
Ellie: Katie Ballaine, come forward. So luckily, it didn't derail my whole college experience, but I remember being very triggered and very upset by it.
Carrie: Yeah, and speaking of early college experiences, wanting a fresh start, I ended up not having the best high school experience. Not because I was bullied, just because of everything that I've described, right?
Carrie: Okay, right before I started freshman year at Stanford, uh, you know, we have orientation, moving in, et cetera, et cetera. Mom moves me in to my dorm. And I remember just being so off put, because this didn't really happen in New York for the most part, and people at my high school were just used to people being famous or known or whatever, they just didn't care.
Carrie: But now in this setting, people from all over the country, right, and specifically their parents, and--I felt so embarrassed because I honestly told my mom not to wear makeup. I told her, "Don't wear makeup when you move me in, because I don't want people to recognize you."
Carrie: And sometimes when I do stuff like that, it makes her--I don't really do it anymore--but it would make her feel bad, obviously, like I'm ashamed of her. But it was really that I just wanted to feel, I just wanted to know that people didn't want to know me for that reason. It's like, fame gives somebody an aura, and proximity to fame gives somebody an aura, too. I didn't want to have that aura because I didn't want to start college with people only wanting to, at least a little part of them, even if it was subconscious, even if they were someone that was like, you know, "I don't, I don't care about stuff like that," them knowing before even meeting me was going to affect how they felt about me in some way.
Carrie: So that's why I had mom not wear makeup when she moved me into college. And I remember being really embarrassed because, you know, people recognized her. It's like some mom from, I don't know, central California. Sorry, I'm just trying to speak to Mom's demographic.
Carrie: I remember getting super embarrassed because at dinner, the first night of college, you know, you eat in your freshman dining hall, and you're sitting with people, random people you don't know, and you're probably not going to be friends with them for the rest of college, to be honest, just random. This guy, big swimmer guy said to me, "are you Katie Couric's daughter?" in front of this whole table of people. And I just, like, panicked. I was like, "Why would you do that to somebody?" But to some people, that's such a non-issue. They're like, "Oh, of course, I'm going to ask that. It's cool!" You know? Sorry, but it's true.
Carrie: Like, they don't see how it could feel violating in some way, because it's just asking about your parent, like, "oh," you know, "is it true this?" But it is, like, it does feel violating. And actually--
Ellie: ''Cause you're going to be like, oh, is your dad Randy Murphy from the orthodontist? It's like, who cares?
Carrie: Yeah. Well, yeah. And I didn't know what to do. So I just panicked and I said, "No, that's somebody else." And obviously everybody knew I was lying, because they all seen my mom already. I mean, anyone who this would affect, you know, they already know. So that was really embarrassing.
Ellie: I totally get that. And what I think is so hard about what you're talking about, "oh, this is Katie Couric's daughter, or she's Katie Couric's daughter, it's sort of, it makes me feel both comfortable and uncomfortable at the same time. Because I immediately feel--
Carrie: It would make me feel comfortable in a setting where there are celebrities.
Ellie: Well, it would--totally.
Carrie: And I just wanted to interject quickly to say like, you know, when we went to the "And Just Like That" premiere, I don't feel comfortable going to something like that without Mom.
Ellie: Of course.
Carrie: I like to have the proximity to fame in those situations. I begged her to go to the after party cause I wanted to meet Andy Cohen, and I knew that he was gonna, you know. You know that other celebrities are going to be nicer to you--
Ellie: Of course, or even acknowledge you--
Carrie: If you're with a celebrity.
Ellie: Even acknowledge you.
Carrie: Than if you're an ordinary person. Like "redacted," wife of famous comedian that we've talked about before. But anyways.
Ellie: Anyway, I just want to say, you know, in situations where you're meeting friends of friends or you're meeting people and some guy, normally it's a guy with, you know, low EQ, will blurt it out or say it in front of you or something, and it makes me feel weird. It makes me feel different. It makes me feel different in a weird way, because, how weird is this to be singled out? And before you even say anything or hear what I have to say, or meet me or learn my name, you know, who my parent is. That's weird.
Ellie: And then on the other hand, I automatically feel at ease because I feel like this person is already biased towards me.
Carrie: Yes, totally.
Ellie: At the same time, then I get in my head.
Carrie: And they're going to treat you with some kind of deference because that's how people treat famous people.
Ellie: Yeah because I feel different, "special." Exactly. I feel different-weird, and I feel different-special at the same time. Then I, um, the other thing that's hard too is then I can get in my head and I can think to myself, "Wow, is this only liking me or am I cool only because of who my mom is? Do I, do you know what I mean?
Carrie: Yeah. And I think when I was little, it was much more exciting. Like, I felt a sense of thrill and power in a situation where some out of towner says "That's Katie Couric!" Because I'm not going to see that person again. But also, I was a kid who was like, "Yeah, she's my mom! Isn't that cool?" You know, "She's my mom!" Um, but then when it happens to you when you're older and you're your own person, it's like this erasure of yourself and your, I guess, just security with yourself, conception of yourself, visibility to yourself. I don't know, uh, it's just erased because you're like, "Oh, well that's actually all that I am." And, uh, your identity becomes suddenly completely moored to that, right?
Ellie: Completely. I completely agree with.
Ellie: So, that was our first episode of All Each Other Has. Thank you so much for tuning in. I had a great time. Carrie, did you?
Carrie: Yes. I also had a great time.
Ellie: Good. Well, I'm glad because we're going to be continuing this conversation in a follow-up episode. So keep an eye out for that.
Carrie: And I wanted to give a huge shout out to Olivia Reingold, my friend and our wonderful producer who miraculously made us sound listenable.
Ellie: Somewhat coherent, somewhat coherent.
Carrie: Despite all of the kinks and growing pains that have come with the start of this project. I also want to encourage people if they're able to check out and donate House of Rebirth. That's HouseofRebirth.org. It's an organization in Dallas supporting the needs of Black trans women in Texas. This is especially important right now, given the state's assault on trans rights. So please, check out HouseofRebirth.org. And until next time--
Ellie: Love you like a sister!
Carrie: Love you like a sister.
Ellie: Love you like a sister by you guys.